Comments on: More on gender expectations

By: Comrade Kevin

Comrade Kevin — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:29:57 +0000

Clearly, it’s going to take more time for this sort of base injustice to be reconciled.

The conservative viewpoint is all about fear of the unknown, and that God forbid we pay a woman equal wages to that of a man because we’ll lose our power base. And I’ve heard those words dribble out of the mouth of my father. He is genuinely concerned that if we allow women the same equalities as men that they’ll take over and then reduce men to second-class citizens out of a sense of petty vindictiveness.

That’s what you’re up against.

And as for the butch lesbian versus the femme lesbian, I can’t warrant a guess, other than men find a lesbian, regardless of how she portrays herself, far less threatening than a gay man. I’ve noticed that in the school system in which my mother works. The clearly lesbian P.E. teachers are left alone, while a heavily-closeted gay football coach is being heavily scrutinized and threatened with termination due to the morality clause in his contract.

By: Ms. Theologian

Ms. Theologian — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:07:44 +0000

I do think that in general people are very weird about money and work. There are those jobs that are supposedly done for the “love” of the subject, so much “love” that money can’t even be discussed.

For my own situation, I’ve only been self-employed 3 of 13 years of full-time employment. And, to focus on a positive aspect, I’m very successful at asking for more money before being hired as an employer or freelancer. This is, of course, the time when I have a lot more power. But upon being hired, I’ve never ever been successful in negotiating for more money, and occasionally seem to have been punished (laid-off) simply for asking. It just seems impossible for me to do. I too wish there were more studies on this. It seems multi-layered.

By: ck

ck — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:36:03 +0000

I guess the question would be whether women who don’t fit the gender schema due to being masculine then have any power to change the structures, once they’re provisionally accepted. Or do people just reinterpret along the lines of masculine = male, and that these women are “borrowing” male attributes? And then the feminine females who are assertive get left in the dust? (Thinking out loud–not really well-formed ideas, just questions.)

By the way, I really appreciate the blog. Good stuff.

By: Jender

Jender — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:17:52 +0000

I’ve read about 2/3 of Valian’s book, and there hasn’t been anything specifically on lesbians. However, she cites some conflicting things regarding “masculine” women. On the one hand, there are studies showing that “masculine” women get an especially hostile reception, due to their lack of fit with gender schemas. (E.g. they don’t look or act like we subconsciously expect women to.) On the other hand, she notes that sometimes this lack of fit with gender schemas can be helpful, if the schema for “woman” very strongly conflicts with the job. She illustrates this with an anecdote about a department in which women grad students were never allowed to teach big lectures– because they were considered not to have enough presence to hold the room’s attention. The exception was a woman who appeared very masculine. Valian hypothesizes that this woman was allowed to what others weren’t precisely because she *didn’t* fit the gender schema.

By: ck

ck — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:28:45 +0000

I’m sorry to hear about your experience–I guess being self-employed doesn’t at all insulate you from that kind of thing? I’ve refrained from extrapolating from my experience, since that is mitigated by all sorts of factors (including bias in how I recall it). I’d be curious, though, to see a study done about it–or even if not on lesbians, on ‘masculine’ women.

I did have one negative reaction in academics to talking about money–but it wasn’t couched in terms of gender, but a “love for the subject.” (i.e., since you care so deeply about study and teaching, what does it matter how much you make?) I thought that was a bit disingenuous, although I understand I’ll never be rich doing philosophy. Merely *asking* about pay shouldn’t get that kind of response.

By: Ms. Theologian

Ms. Theologian — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:29:43 +0000

You know….when I saw this story originally, I thought about posting it on my blog, but I couldn’t come up with anything positive to say, and sometimes I fear I’m way way way too negative on my blog.

I have had ONLY really negative feedback when I ask for raises and promotions based on work performance, money I bring in, work I do, etc. I’ve had all sorts of career counseling in order to do it well too, and the article just affirmed to me that advice to “be more assertive” simply doesn’t work for me. I too am curious about (”masculine”) lesbian experience on this.